Freedom from Blog

Don't call it a comeback . . . .

Thursday, August 23, 2007

Chutzpah Ain't Just a Jewish Thang

Egads, Paul. And we had just started to get along so well. Que sera sera, as the Frenchies say. Although I admire the mental gymnastics that allow you to use the devious machinations of an atheist skeptic (Kristol) to discredit genuine religious believers, I can't say it gives me much faith in your superior secularist logic. However, I hear there is an opening for an obfuscating atheist at the White House, what with K-Dawg put to pasture. You really are on the wrong team you know. The four most powerful atheists of the last thirty years have all been wingnut Pubies: Rove, Kristol, Rehnquist, Greenspan. I'm sure they'd love to add another classicist to the honor roll.

Your post is so riddled with strawmen and non sequiturs that I'm perplexed at where to start. Let's go to the heart of the matter: mythos. Religious believers do not generally interpret myth the way you do, as "falsehood." It's not even beyond dispute that Plato interprets it that way, since "noble lie" (pseudos, I believe, but you're the Greekie) is usually rendered "noble fiction," suggesting narrative but not necessarily intended deception. For the religious, myth implies a discourse that is not strictly rational, but not necessarily irrational either. Most Christian theologians have argued that core Christian claims are "superrational," meaning that while true, they cannot be established via unaided empirical observation. Of course, if the world were 100% knowable, such discourse would be unnecessary. But religions posit that it is not. Our lives are bounded by phenomena (the origins and meaning of life, the experience of death, the grounding of ethics, etc.) that are in great measure hidden from our view. To embrace myth is simply to acknowledge that much of what is most essential escapes our immediate grasp.

Where reason runs up against its natural boundaries, imagination floods in. Surely there is much opportunity for abuse and outright illogic here. But religion, at its best, is NOT arbitrary. It deploys the imagination to reveal moral truths and give them a popular narrative form. "Heaven" projects the fundamental goodness of life into the infinite; "hell" instantiates the ideas of justice and reciprocity. Truth. Charity. Equality. Humility. I could go on. It's always possible to pull out specific details and make them look silly (shellfish, beards, magic underwear, etc.). We can all play that game where we pick the worst excesses of religion on one hand or atheism on the other and attribute them to all people in that category. If you notice, in my original post I was very careful not to do that with respect to atheists, a courtesy that has in no way been reciprocated by my atheist responders, who seem incapable of making an argument that takes its opponent seriously rather than as a mental disorder for the corrupt, the retarded, and the conformist.

What then of Strauss & Kristol? Well, first, let me say that, having written my dissertation partly on Strauss and published on him, I'll have to speak from something other than blogosphere cliche. Like you, Strauss was primarily a classicist and incidentally an atheist. Unlike you, however, Strauss was deeply concerned with the fate of political culture in a world where God was dead, truth dissolved, and the only reality was power. He embraced what we might describe as the "philosopher's faith" in the true and the good. And yet he acknowledged that this faith could not be proved against the claims of revealed religion and that it could not sustain a just society. He saw that the philosopher's faith was incompatible with a belief in fundamental human equality and that it was always in danger of promoting "tyranny." So far so good, I'd say. (Also, this suggests that Kristol misread Strauss if the quote you cite accurately reflects the context.)

Strauss's great error (one of many) was to propose--as a solution to this dilemma--a strong separation between philosophy and faith, such that philosophers became creatures of ineffable reason and prudent backstage power while religious believers became orthodox and obedient. Strauss scorned Christianity for seeking to be "rational," looking for truth in public, a pretense he thought made someone like Nietzsche inevitable. Ironically, given the neocons, Strauss preferred Islam. (He also cast his first American vote for Adlai Stevenson, but that's a different kettle of fish.) In short, Strauss's position was much like yours: he wanted the rational to be rational and the religious to be religious, never the twain to meet. Except that, unlike you, he didn't have the Stalinist dream of a world without religion and sought to understand how the two could coexist. His answers weren't very persuasive, and he really, really misunderstood "modernity," but at least he grappled with the problem.

So please, don't blame the neocons on religion. We've got enough of our own messes to clean up without having to solve yours as well.

6 Comments:

At 3:06 AM, Blogger Paul said...

TMcD,

It really would be great if you could respond to what someone has actually written without resorting to rhetoric such as "mental gymnastics", "obfuscating atheist", "unlike you... Stalinist dream" (how else to describe this last one other than with the word cliché?).

As for some of the specific things you wrote, such as "Let's go to the heart of the matter: mythos. Religious believers do not generally interpret myth the way you do, as "falsehood.""

Actually, I really do know the difference between the nuanced word mythos and "myth", so I employ the former (italicized) rather than the simplistic latter. This doesn't change the fact that religion relies upon mythoi, and although mythoi usually contain truths about redemption, greed, the human condition... they are often riddled with lies as well (which is what gave rise to the popular meaning).

As for you accusing me of laying the blame at Strauss's feet, I might point out that I specifically avoided this by saying "which is not to say that Strauss would have agreed with the specific political goals of the Neoconservatives or is to blame for them."

At any rate, I'll sum up your argument as equivalent to "Mythoi, while not always strictly true, tell some eternal truths. And just because some religious people who believe those mythoi get snookered by evil Atheists and the like, doesn't mean that religion or religious people are bad, false or to blame."

Fair enough. I really do get that point, although if you want to keep that branch of your argument hanging then we Atheists get to sit on too and I can say "Just because some Atheists snooker the faithful by telling them lies they want to hear doesn't mean that Atheism is false or all Atheists are bad or to blame."

Really, my biggest point was that the electorate's pining for political discourse to be couched in mythoi, both religious and nationalist, opens the door to a lot of lying and a lot of mischief. So in the realm of politics I would prefer discourse that does not need to appeal to mythoi to be considered "true", and I think the world would be the better for it in the long run, although I'm not foolish enough to believe that some utopia would result.

Your position guarantees the status quo. It also means that groups like the Neocons will continue to find fertile ground to carry out their schemes.

 
At 6:29 AM, Blogger Paul said...

O yeah. When confronted with something we don't know, I would think it more healthy to just to say "We don't know" rather than resort to supernatural or superrational explanations which cannot be falsified or verified.

I would also like to point out that when a religion such as Christianity on one level recognizes the virtue in the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth (which I take it to mean the actual reality of something), then it really does matter whether or not Christ was actually and verifiably the Son of God, that he really was born of a Virgin, that he really came to earth and performed miracles, that he really did die on the cross in substitution for our sins, that he now actually sits at the right hand of God in heaven, that the faithful actually do drink his actual blood and eat his actual body (OK, Protestants just believe these are symbols robbing them of their power), that today the faithful await his actual return in which he will actually usher in a new just kingdom here on earth and judge the quick and the dead, that those who don't believe in him, be they Atheists, Muslims or Jews. will go to their eternal damnation in an actual place called Hell, that he really does speak to us via the Pope, the Church, other religious leaders, or the Scriptures (however you define Church and Scriptures). These aren't just symbols to most believers. And if you admit that any or all of these are mere symbols pointing to greater truths rather than actual realities, then you are a distinct minority among the clergy and laity of all the major brances of your own religion.

 
At 5:08 PM, Blogger Transient Gadfly said...

O yeah. When confronted with something we don't know, I would think it more healthy to just to say "We don't know" rather than resort to supernatural or superrational explanations which cannot be falsified or verified.

In defense of TMcD, I don't think he's saying that. To follow your own construction from the previous post, just because other people have (mis)used spiritual exploration to form attrocious and obviously disprovable models to explain phenomena we don't understand does not invalidate spiritual exploration as a method for divining these truths. And I would think it definitely more productive (and probably healthier) than just throwing up your hands and saying, "I don't know."

 
At 7:06 PM, Blogger Paul said...

Actually TMcD wrote, "Where reason runs up against its natural boundaries, imagination floods in." Elsewhere he talks of the "superrational". Since we were talking about religion, I thought TMcD's words "imagination" and "superrational" must pertain to belief in God or divine explanations, and if that's not resorting to supernatural or superrational explanations for things we don't understand, then I need to consult another language's lexicon (note the contrast between natural boundaries and the imagination).

O yeah, let's not play fast and loose with language here: supernatural is most commonly used of a divine being with powers that suspend the normal rules of nature that humans can observe. It is a being who expects worship or fear and a certain code of behavior from humans and that's how I'm using it here = God. TMcD seems to be using superrational the same way (my guess is the word supernatural has become too toxic, so now we're going to try and make the concept of God more palatable with a better sounding word -- superrational).

I was always taught that the first lesson in true knowledge is admit when you don't know something. That doesn't mean you just throw up your hands and stop thinking about the problem (of course I didn't mean that), but the worst thing to do when you can't explain something is to ascribe a supernatural or superrational explanation to do the work for you, at which point you've explained it with your imagination, so you no longer need to look for a real answer. One's imagination may play a role in formulating a non-supernatural hypothesis, if by imagination we mean "creative", but again, I think TMcD's "imagination" was being used in the context of religious explanations in contrast to the "natural". Thus if someone has a seizure, we might not understand why and admit that and then look for some cause, or we could use our imagination to explain it as demon possession and be happy that we discovered an answer. In looking for a reason for the seizure, we may posit a "spiritual" cause, if by spiritual you mean something like an emotional cause rather than a "supernatural" cause.

As for emotions, I would argue that they are a part of our natural being. We may explain the power of love as the supernatural or superrational force of Aphrodite (who can deny the power of Love?), and I'm perfectly willing to do so on a metaphorical level as a "symbolic" gesture and see the poetry and beauty in it, but as soon as we start building her temples and offering her sacrifices, and praying to her, or passing laws in her name, then we've moved beyond mere symbols to actual belief in her reality as a supernatural being that must be appeased.

I seriously doubt TMcD really believes that his religion is just a bunch of metaphorical symbols pointing to greater truths, just like most Greeks didn't view Aphrodite as a mere symbol. If he does, then he views his religion like I view Aphrodite, so we're in total agreement and I apologize for the misunderstanding. Regardless of what TMcD believes, I'm sure that most other people who have faith in a particular religion don't view their faith in merely symbolic terms.

 
At 11:20 AM, Blogger tenaciousmcd said...

Paul, I thought you were finally edging away from hysterics in your first set of comments, only to be disappointed by your subsequent ones. I take the point that you offered some caveats in your original post. Except that if you had really taken those caveats seriously you never would have written the post at all, since they tended to dissolve your argument into dust.

I must also take exception to this notion of "lies" you keep hurling about. Not every imaginative narrative needs to meet modern standards of scientific, factual accuracy to be true. Is Antigone a "lie"? Hamlet? Oliver Twist? Of course not. We wouldn't even think to use that word for such fictions because it would betray a fundamental misunderstanding of the enterprise. A colleague of mine likes to tell his students, "if you want to understand reality, read fiction." I'm not sure why Adam and Eve must be a radically different case. (And if St. Paul didn't know about the "virgin" birth, I'm not sure why I absolutely have to believe in it either.)

Now, maybe you'll say that religious accounts are different because believers ascribe a kind of literalness to them that readers and writers of drama or novels do not. Maybe, except that I think most theologians--Jewish, Christian, even many Muslims (for whom the Koran IS literal truth down to the punctuation)--would disagree with you. In Confessions, Augustine makes it very clear that a literal interpretation of scripture would be incoherent and that Christians must recognize that symbol and metaphor reveal MORE than the literal word. He further argues that reason plays an invaluable role in the development of faith, casting doubt on false faiths and deepening true ones. The Manichees' inability to grapple with the truths of astronomy was strong evidence (if not fully conclusive) against the legitimacy of their creed. I suspect he would have a good laugh at the creationists' expense were he alive today.

OK, so you'll respond by saying that those theologians are a minority view within these faiths, and that the majority of people are literalists in practice. Fine. I don't know that that's true, but let's assume it is. Is the majority view of a religion necessarily the correct one? Certainly not for Catholics, who give privilege to priestly elites, or Protestants who once upon a time embraced Luther's "every man his own preist." Indeed, most religious faiths exhibit a significant degree of internal diversity, allowing different people to understand faith in different ways. It's unfortunate that Catholics have sometimes censored their Abelards and Protestants have persecuted their Anne Hutchesons. (Is the political world any different? We are human, after all.) Still, over time, both Caths & Prots have incorporated views they once found marginal or even heretical. Despite what the Catholics sometimes think, no religion is a monolith. Each is a tradition of contested interpretation: symbol, imagination, and reason.

So, really, using the scare word "lies" to describe religious mythos is just cheap rhetoric.

I'd also like to agree with the eminent TG on the issue of knowledge. I'll go farther. Atheists and believers DO have different approaches to the unknown, each with advantages and disadvantages. The atheist is certainly more cautious, putting his or her faith in the notions that either (a) science will eventually reveal to us all that needs revealing, or (b) we're better off not making any statements at all about the empirically unknown for fear of mistake or fanaticism. More daringly, the religious believer takes a leap, believing that the inability of reason to encompass the real does not free us from the dependance of our lives upon the unknown (origins, ethics, death). As a result, believers risk being wrong so as not to exclude by fiat the most important aspects of existence from discussion.

Does this make religious believers occasional fanatics? Sure. But you're wrong to suggest that atheists are not so prone to embracing fanatical dogmas. Communism? Fascism? Nazism? Spencerian or Randian laissez-faire? Hello!!! I'd also add neoconservatism, but I certainly don't think I need to, given that every other name on that list is worse and less contestable.

Although I could make the Tocquevillian or Dostoyevskyan point that religious mythos tends to exclude more dangerous atheistic dogmas (a variation on your point above that also avoids giving YOU a position of special privilege), I'll make a more moderate, less point-scoring point. We embrace dangerous fanaticism and dogma not because we're religious or irreligious, but because we're HUMAN. All men sin, my brother.

 
At 1:58 PM, Blogger Paul said...

TMcD,

I take your point about the word "lie". In fact after thinking about it this afternoon before reading your post I had already thought that I should have used "untruths" or "things that are untrue" rather than "lie." So go back and subsitiute "untruth" or "untruths" for every "lie." I still think the fact that mythoi are full of untruths (as well as some truth) is signifigant. As I said before, this characteristic is what gave rise to the popular meaning of the English word myth.

At this point I really have no idea what you really believe, so it might help me if you make a clear and concise statement about that. I had always thought the Nicene Creed was pretty much a fair statement of most of the issues central to Christian belief. I know some Churches argue over one English word here or there, but by and large most denominations embrace it, and recite it from time to time. If you a Christian Church, I'm willing to bet you can recite from heart and could do so now. A short run down (yes or no) on whether you believe each of its points to be litarally true would help me understand where you're coming from.

 

Post a Comment

<< Home